We Love That For You

Cameron:
Adrian Black. Cameron Arduguer.

Adrian:
My second ick is Cameron's hat.

Cameron:
But I'll digress. We love that for you. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the We Love That For You podcast. I'm your host, Cameron Ardeglaer, joined by the co-host, Adrian Black.

Adrian:
What's up, guys? What's up? What's going on?

Cameron:
How are you doing?

Adrian:
I heard you had quite the weekend.

Cameron:
Yeah, it was a rough one. It was a rough one. Yeah, I hit a tree.

Adrian:
So was the tree in the middle of the freeway or?

Cameron:
It was like a main street and I was driving, it was like 4.30 and I was with somebody on my way home and the tree literally broke down in front of me into the street and I had to swerve out of the way and it really messed up my car. Like total? I don't know, I think it's going to be like 30,000 in damages. Shut up. So wait, the tree fell. It fell while I was driving in the middle of the night. Yeah crazy while you have a passenger in the car. Yeah Yeah, we survived. No, my adrenaline was pumping for sure.

Adrian:
It didn't flip or anything No, and now you're ubering from Calabasas.

Cameron:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, pretty much. What was that?

Adrian:
You know, there's this like the the shadow not shadow banning. Um The Eclipse.

Cameron:
Oh, yeah Someone literally told me

Adrian:
don't leave your house this weekend. So it's just going to happen.

Cameron:
Yeah, it happened. It happened like tenfold. Today, we have a very, very, very special episode for everybody. We are joined by activist, speaker and retreat host, Adwoa Sahana and high fashion model, Sasha Cullen. Supermodel, supermodel. Supermodel for sure. I'm so sorry. Yeah, you definitely. Hi, Michelle.

Adrian:
Hi, Sasha.

Sasha:
Hi.

Cameron:
First, let's start off with our fits.

Adrian:
Our favorite game. Should you go first?

Cameron:
You go first. Of course. Since you look like Aladdin today.

Adrian:
You're wearing a uniform. Don't play with me. Okay. So from the bottom to the top, we have Dior sandals.

Cameron:
Okay.

Adrian:
And then we have pants from Maxwell. Okay. This shirt is from Vince. This is from J.Crew. And the hat I bought at a flea market, at the Pasadena flea market.

Adoja:
I like the vest.

Cameron:
Have you ever seen Superbad?

Adrian:
Are you trying to insult me right now?

SPEAKER_02:
Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron:
Let's move on.

Adoja:
I like your best. Let's move on to the next outfit. My cargo pants are from Seven, Seven for Mankind. My body suit is from J Lux Label. And I think that's it, that's all I'm wearing.

Cameron:
Oh, the watch, the watch.

Adoja:
Oh, the watch is Citizen's, Citizen Watch.

Cameron:
Oh, I like it, it's dainty.

Adoja:
Isn't it dainty? Yeah. Not just my dainty figure.

Adrian:
And what about your uniform, Cam?

Cameron:
Oh, me? I'll just... LA uniform.

SPEAKER_02:
LA nightlife. H&M.

Cameron:
LA night... Yeah, H&M all the way. Yeah, with some Air Forces. White Air Forces, though. Not black Air Forces. So, we're good. I mean, it's always white Air Forces. But I like that shirt. How about you, Sasha?

SPEAKER_00:
Let's see the fit. My top is from Zara. My sweatpants are from Vince. Vince's sweatpants? And I have socks on.

Cameron:
Ooh, you're matching though. I don't know where they're from.

Adrian:
Sasha, you could wear like a paper bag and it would be high fashion. I swear to God. So now that we got like the important stuff out of the way, let's talk about our topic. Cam, what's our topic?

Cameron:
Oh, beauty standards and all the societal pressures that black women face in America. That's the topic we're going to start out with.

Adrian:
Especially when it comes to colorism. Yeah, colorism. And we have a big activist here. I wanted to also hear from Sasha's perspective as a model. Like, I mean, girl, I mean, you're kind of like the worst example because you're literally dating a white guy. But can you deep dive into it as to why every dark skinned model No, I'm just kidding. But it's the best example. Can you deep dive into why all the models that are stunning and dark-skinned always go for a white older man? It's such a... Yeah, they usually go for like a really, really older man. Like always. And they're always a European old man. Like 60s, right?

Cameron:
60s, 70s. 50s, 60s, 70s. Something like that, right? Not always.

Adrian:
That's old.

Adoja:
Not always. I know a lot of models, dark skin models. And they're not all dating old white men. I mean, they're all pretty much white. They're white, but they're not old.

SPEAKER_00:
There's a lot of them, but not all of them. But like, I feel like one thing that plays into it is a lot of girls work in Europe. And so, you know, the options are kind of slim there. You know, if you're working in Milan or working in Paris or London, well, London is more diverse than the other two places. But I've dated before I was dating him. I was dating a Nigerian. I was good up there. We love that for you. I dated a Ghanaian. I've dated many types of guys, but, you know, ended up here.

Adrian:
Sash, so somehow, you know, you found yourself going into the typical dating, right? Like she's dating the typical, beautiful, dark-skinned, tall model dates a white guy. And you fell into that. stereotype, but like, is there like a thing as to like, you know, were you looking for it actively? Is it something that you found that just like found you? And then what, like, what made it seem like you were like, Oh, I want to date this person.

SPEAKER_00:
No. Like I said, I've dated like different types of guys. I don't really have like a specific type. Like literally if I lined up all my exes, Like they have nothing in common besides the fact that they're all 6'2 and up.

Cameron:
They should be. How tall are you?

SPEAKER_00:
5'11.

Cameron:
Yeah. And with heels, it's like 6'2, 6'3, right?

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. 6'3, depending on. how tall my heels are yeah that's the only thing i'm like okay i need a tall guy but besides that like look wise ethnicity like they all look different they all have different backgrounds but i don't know we just met and we hit it off because i like you know his personality he was very funny he thought i was funny and i like that and we just you know

Cameron:
So you guys have some natural chemistry. Yeah.

Adrian:
Well, I mean, you know, you're in upstate New York right now and we have our friend who's an activist who's also a dark skinned girl. Like, what's your situation with, you know, dating? Like, do you find it that they.

Adoja:
Well, I, to be honest, a lot of white men, they they prop us up. It feels like they prop us up more than black men. In a good way. In a good way. Like they sometimes they, I don't know if the word is fantasize. What's the word? Fetishize. Fetishize?

Sasha:
Us?

Adoja:
So I think that is, you know, and there's again, there's colorism within our own community. So there are black men who may not want to have dark skin babies.

Adrian:
We're definitely going to talk about colorism because that's a huge topic, you know, essentially the topic of the day, which actually leads me to a topic which Cameron and I ask every single guest this and we ask each other, what's your ick of the day? I think colorism is my ick of the day. Honestly, and it kind of goes back into the topic. What's your ache of the day cam and don't steal mine. That's right. That's my ache of the day. I mean I benefit from colorism, let's be real, but it's my ache of the day.

Cameron:
I have a really weird ache of the day. It happened to me last night actually when I'm having a conversation with someone and they keep repeating the same action words that I repeat. So if I'm like, oh yeah, if I'm talking to a girl or something like that, I'll be like, oh yeah, I went here, I went to Santa Monica and it was crazy. And she's like, oh yeah, it was crazy like that. So I hate when people repeat what I say. Yeah, it happened last night. It's really weird. Anyways, what's your ache of the day?

Adoja:
My ache of the day. I don't have like an ick of the day, per se. What's your ick in general? My ick in general, I don't like gross eaters. I don't like, you know, I'm very... I saw you eating chicken last night. That's not eating it grossly, though. Like, chewing with your mouth open, like very... Oh, just manners. Yeah. Good manners. Yeah, fried chicken. That shit was good.

Adrian:
That was so good.

Cameron:
How about you, Sasha? What's your ick of the day?

SPEAKER_00:
I remember going on a date with a guy once and he was so rude to the waiter. And it just made me feel so fucking uncomfortable. That's a good one.

Adrian:
That's a really good one.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah.

Adrian:
Oh, I mean, that's just like that's just like what? What do you get from that? It's like a power trip. OK, OK. So we asked you guys about your day. Mine was colorism. We're definitely going to deep dive into it, OK? You guys are both dark skin, beautiful women, right? I mean. Can you tell us exactly like what this topic is about, because I mean, for Cameron, I talk about it, it's like. We get it, and it's like we love, we don't want it to be a thing, but it's like we can't really talk about it in the way that you understand colorism.

Adoja:
Yeah, I mean, I mean, this this it depends on where where you want to start with it. This goes back to slavery, like quite quite literally where once the slave masters were. Let's be honest, just, you know, blunt conversation, raping their slaves. the lighter skinned children of the enslaved women were getting preferential treatment because the closer you are to the color of the master, the more accepted you are in society. And so that, I mean, that is racism in a different way. And that just never left our society. That is part of our culture that is ingrained. You see it everywhere. You see it within our own culture. And so you have lighter skinned black people who think that they're better than dark skinned black people and they don't even realize where it's coming from because it is, in our marketing, it's in the workplace, it is everywhere around us. And so it really is up to us to address those issues and our biases. And, you know, yes, it comes from white supremacy, but we have a duty and an obligation and we have to hold ourselves accountable that we are not perpetuating the master's ideology, which is based on white supremacy. So it is It's something that we in our own black culture need to really pay attention to because we don't talk about it enough. It makes us uncomfortable. But it affects black, like dark skinned women in a very like, for instance, I I want to have a baby. I want to give birth to myself. I love myself.

Adrian:
Not narcissism or something.

Adoja:
No, I just love it. Like I love it. Whatever. I love my skin, but it took me a really long time to deliberately love my skin because everything around me told me that I should not. There are skin bleaching creams you can get. I can go to Walmart right now and buy skin bleaching cream. I can get an IV and within a few months I can be your color.

Cameron:
Wait, what do you mean?

Adoja:
They have intravenous. Like Michael? Yeah, intravenous. I don't know what. I thought that's a good contraction. I do not know what the chemicals are. They are very damaging to your body. I don't think people realize this. It damages your kidneys, your liver, vital organs. And it's because we are pressured to think that that is that is better. That is that is the standard. But there are black men who want lighter-skinned babies, and they don't even address that in themselves to recognize, like, why is it that you even want a lighter-skinned baby in the first place? So it doesn't leave us dark-skinned women with as many choices in men. So I don't blame dark-skinned women for dating outside the race, because you gotta get love where you can get it, you know? I would love to be with a dark-skinned man.

Cameron:
So how do you feel when other black people say that the opposite way around? When a black man dates a white woman or something, they're like, oh, you guys are stealing our men or something like that.

Adoja:
I mean, if it's real love, it's real love. But I think the question needs to be explored. Why are you doing this? Particularly because of the history between white women and black women. put us in situations where they've killed black men, they lie, they make things up, and end up in jail.

Adrian:
But you know, like, my thing is, like, colorism is fact, like, we can't deny it, right? The thing is, like, when you guys look this hot, like you and Sasha can access a lot, right? Even with your skin. That's true. So do you still feel the ramifications of the stigma? But even though you can still access everything and you're stunning and you're beautiful and people chase you and you still pull a lot of men like what?

Adoja:
Yeah, I mean, you still feel it for sure. You feel it. You feel it amongst your people. where I have I've had light skin, lighter skin, black women like give me looks. I'm prettier than you, bitch. Like like priority. You see it on TV. You see it on the Housewives shows. What is it that the Housewives of Potomac, when they were like all mean to the to the Nigerians, the dark skin, Nigerian woman? I don't I don't watch the show, but there was a lot of talk about it, you know, and they just.

Adrian:
When I look at Sasha, though, like and I look at her modeling career, I see models that look more like Sasha than look like me.

SPEAKER_00:
But the thing is, within the industry, it's very like, they treat models like like trends. So you know, one one day, once upon a time, it was like the lighter skin model once upon a time now like Sudanese girls, you know, are like the new it girls and it's like getting so bad that their scouts going to refugee camps, I heard about getting models. Sudanese models from refugee camps. Wait, they send them back after? They send them back. If they're not making money, they'll send them back. But it's it's it kind of shows like that, like the dehumanization of it all, like the fact that these people are, you know, they're in, so we got to go get them from wherever we can. And once they're not popping anymore, we discard them. You know, at one point you saw a lot of indigenous Native American models. Now you're not really seeing them as much. One time plus size models was popping, they were doing all the fashion shows. Me growing up, I only had like Naomi Campbell and Tyra Banks. You know, there was maybe like a few black models. And those were the women, those are the only women I had to look up to. So there are young girls out there who are plus size, who, you know, they don't really have anybody that they see and they can feel like they're beautiful. Cause those women made me feel beautiful. I used to watch, my dad was like a big Michael Jackson fan. And so I would watch the In the Closet video with Naomi Campbell, or I would watch Remember the Time with Iman. And seeing these Black models as the love interest or as a queen, those were the only time I get to see that. So I feel like there are girls who need to see these plus size models.

Adrian:
But why are they never the spotlight? Like they never open or close the show. They're like just placed there specifically and strategically. It's not like I've never seen them used as a muse.

Adoja:
It's performatism, right?

Adrian:
It's performatism, right? That's exactly what Cameron and I are saying. Like it's literally like it's not truly accepted, but like it's like they're never the muse. They're never the act. They're sort of just there to fulfill a quota. And that's that's wrong.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, because they're feeding because now with social media and with like, um, you know, the surge of like activism, you have more people speaking out against things. So I think they're trying to play into that and they've noticed that there's an audience there. So, you know, it's all like a money, like it's all like a numbers game. Like for example, prior to Fenty, every makeup, you go to different makeup brands, they maybe had like eight different shades and maybe one of them was for dark skin people. And then Rihanna did Fenty and she had a line with like 50 plus shades or like 40 plus shades. And she started making money. And then all the other companies started following suit. Once they realize that there's a market there, then they'll try to act like they care. They'll do what they can to appease to that market so that they can make money. Because they're realizing there's women that we're not representing that can also be spending money with us. So we might not make them the opening girl or the closing girl, but we'll throw them in there so that these girls feel seen and they can spend their money. That's essentially what it is.

Adrian:
The first always has to be a white plus size. Like it's always a white person. Right. Like white supremacist.

Adoja:
It's like we're in America.

Adrian:
What's her name? I mean, I love that. Like I love her. And her name's like Ashley Graham or something. Yeah. Yeah. And like I don't know a black model that's plus size. Is it Sasha? Does that does one exist? I'm sure it does. I just don't know.

Cameron:
I think I've seen it before somewhere. Not Liz, but not but not at not Ashley Graham's level. No, no, definitely not. Definitely not. Right.

SPEAKER_00:
There's preciously preciously. She's She was in Drake's video with 21 Savage, but she's a model originally.

Adrian:
Oh, I know who you're talking about, the girl with the... She's got covers. She's a baddie. She's a baddie. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, we're definitely veering off the topic. But like, let's get back into it. Sasha, like, do you feel like With skin, right? Give me like a personal experience where like the beauty standard and the societal pressure as a black woman that you face with dark skin. Because for me and Cameron, we just see you guys and it's like, you guys are stunning. So it's like, I don't know what door you couldn't access. What's your question? So like, do you feel like, what do you feel? Like, what is this like, pressure that you're feeling? Or is it like a am I just making it up in my head?

Adoja:
It's not it's not pressure. It is. It's colorism. So it's not it's not pressure. It's just it's recognizing that someone will choose someone light over you.

Adrian:
And so the feeling is like when you're not attractive, regardless of skin, but like when you're not attractive in dark skin, like I could see that. But you guys are like stunning.

Adoja:
Then it then sometimes it just it feels like you're being fetishized. Yeah, but like someone someone wants me to have to be a thing, right? I don't I don't feel I don't feel pressure. I feel disgusted that someone wants me like because I am dark-skinned like ooh I've never had I've literally had a man tell me I've never been with a dark-skinned woman before and wanting to be with me in like a physical way that is disgusting and That you didn't like me for me. My mind is so much more attractive than my body. You haven't had a very deep conversation with me. I have depth. I am not surface level at all. And so when I can tell that someone wants me because of my physicality, I know immediately that you are dehumanizing me. If I was a slave, the master would still rape me. It had nothing... Yes. No, listen, listen, this is like this is it just because of the fetish. He didn't have to like me. He didn't have to love me. He doesn't have to respect me. He just wants my body. And so for us, it feels it's if if I can't have a deep conversation with you, then I'm then I'm wondering what this connection is.

Adrian:
Was this person Caucasian?

Cameron:
Yes, okay, but Adrian for you you've dated different nationalities and Ethnicities, right?

Adrian:
Yeah. Yeah. What's the question?

Cameron:
Yeah, but going going back to Yeah

Adrian:
I mean, not to the scale that I think Michelle is talking about. I mean, I'm also African like Michelle. But for Michelle, she's visibly African, where you don't look like you're from America. For me, I can blend in a little bit easier, where I just look like I could be maybe, have a little bit of something in me.

Adoja:
Honestly, sorry. The other thing is also I find that men are also very intimidated by me and they don't know how to approach me. So typically the ones that do are a bit more like brazen. And, you know, they're just like they're not that's always very smooth with it because they like I've had people tell me flat out that I look like someone that should be dating like yeah, like dating Channing Tatum. And they felt like I wouldn't want to like they they put you.

Cameron:
They're insecure.

Adoja:
Yeah, insecure. So insecure people, I think that people assume that people in our position are approached a lot more than what we are. We're not when you are. I'm going to my own horn when you are beautiful and you are very smart. You are very intimidating to people. Dark skin. They don't know they just people they just assume that I'm not single Most people assume that I am in a relationship or married For you like for me, I know I'm just like I'm black at the NFL.

Adrian:
Yeah, Somali But for you, you're like literally half white half black. Yeah, I don't even know. Oh, yes I know you and Sasha in New York and had the experience of a lifetime. Oh yeah, for sure. Where, okay, Michelle, I don't know if you know about this. So like, Cameron and Michelle, we went to this really cool restaurant. I forgot the name, but that restaurant was nice.

Adoja:
Oh, so we both had interactions with Cameron where we've had to maybe kind of educate him on some colors. Yeah, I think Sasha made out with Cameron. No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00:
No, you guys didn't. No, I did not.

Cameron:
He made out with the other girl. That was the other one.

SPEAKER_00:
I won't disclose any names. No names.

Cameron:
No names.

Adrian:
Are you sure Sasha? I could have sworn you guys were like tongue deep in the back of the Uber.

Cameron:
No, no, no. Okay. That's cap. That's cap.

Adrian:
But you know, like Michelle, you have a different approach. Sasha has a different approach. Michelle's approach is more education based where Sasha just is like, I don't have time to educate you.

Cameron:
So yeah, I had to get into, I remember I had two, two conversations, the same thing with two different people with two different reactions. Right. So remember, okay.

Adrian:
And the Uber, right.

Cameron:
Yeah.

Adrian:
You were so heated in that moment.

Cameron:
I was hot. I was hot. So like, why am I not allowed to say the N word if I'm black? So can we get it?

Adrian:
Let's actually go ahead. What was the statement that you made to make him pound his chest the way he did?

Cameron:
So actually it wasn't like that. You were proud of your gesture. It was not like that.

Adoja:
It was a lot. So what happened, guys? Because I have no idea what the situation was.

Adrian:
Sasha made a statement, a bold statement, which I'm on Sasha's side. But I still get cameras. Sasha, what did you say, babe?

SPEAKER_00:
OK, so I want to start by saying that we were all drunk. We just came from, I don't know, dinner at the club or whatever. But I had a theory, which I still I still kind of stand by this theory that if you are biracial. And well, first of all, I believe that the moms are the they kind of. you know, the tastemakers of the home. You know, your mom cooks the food. I don't know about y'all, but my mom, when she was cleaning the house, she'll play music. They kind of have like proverbs and stuff that they tell you as a kid, like sayings and things like that. So my theory is, if you are biracial, like half black, half white, and you're raised by a white mother, then you're more white. And that's because, you know, the mothers are the tastemakers of the home. So you had more of a white experience. He wasn't really eaten, you know. African American food, soul food, Caribbean food, African food, you know, whatever that kind of food you like, you know, the mother parenting is probably a little different. I don't know. It depends on the parents. Childhood experience as well. But I don't know. I just feel like you grow up to be a little more

Cameron:
So if I don't eat a certain type of food, or if I didn't grow up with a black mom, it takes away from my black experience. That means I'm not black. Can you say that?

Adrian:
That takes away from my black experience, right? It goes into, Sasha's just saying like that's your existence and your experience is more focused on your white side. So therefore the world might treat you like I'm black, right? Yeah. But your reality isn't really that.

Cameron:
So how is that not my reality when everybody treats me like I'm black?

Adrian:
It's because you have mixed race syndrome. Because you don't fit into both worlds. What she's saying is you really don't know what it is to be black because you weren't really raised black, regardless of what people have made you feel. Okay, your reality is not black, because of your home.

SPEAKER_02:
Okay, like, because my mom is like, kind of see what you're saying.

Adrian:
But like, the, but the thing is, like, it's nature versus nurture, right? Yeah. So like, the world made you feel black. And therefore you have the right to say that is what you're saying.

Cameron:
Yeah, of course. That's what I am. Just because I was raised in a white home doesn't take away from my blackness. I'm still black at the end of the day. Genetically, I am. I'm literally 50%.

Adrian:
That's debatable. I think you're Mexican or something like that.

Cameron:
I'm literally 50%. I can pull up my ancestry right now. Straight up, Western Aberdeen.

SPEAKER_00:
I'm just speaking on your experience. Like, obviously, like, if you have a black father, obviously, like you, you are half black, you know, we're not going to discount your father. But your experience is more, you grew up in more of a white experience.

Cameron:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I have nothing against that. But why am I not allowed to say certain things or act a certain way? If that's who I truly am, if that's what my values are, how can you come here and tell me that I'm not black, right? Well, she's not saying you're not black. But I don't get the same privileges that a black person gets, right?

Adrian:
What do you mean, privileges?

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, let's clarify. Like privileges.

Cameron:
Like she got mad at me for saying the N-word when I say it with my friends all the time. And nobody has a problem with it.

Adrian:
If you're from a white vagina, you cannot say the N-word regardless if you're half black.

Cameron:
None of my boys have ever even told me anything remotely to that.

Adrian:
Well, your boys are like not black.

Cameron:
My boys that are black. Okay.

Adoja:
That's also just her opinion. That's her opinion.

Adrian:
Yeah. Which is valid.

SPEAKER_00:
It's valid. It's a theory. Theories can be disproven.

Adrian:
I mean, it's a theory. It doesn't have to be proven or disproven. It's a theory. It doesn't take away from your blackness.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah.

Adrian:
But the thing is, why did that comment trigger you so much is the real question.

Cameron:
Yeah, because I see it everywhere. I don't fit in anywhere. I don't fit in the white community. I don't fit in the black community. And I try so hard to fit in with everyone, right? And I just try to be myself. And when someone tries to dim your light, I felt in that moment that she was trying to dim my light and try to tell me something that I'm not, right? So yeah, it's triggering. It's triggering for me.

Adrian:
So it's so funny because you're saying Your community has made you feel other because you're half half. Yeah, you're saying your community has made you feel less than because of your skin So it's like literally it's our own people perpetuating these things.

Adoja:
Yeah is what I'm yes, right? Yeah, it is Yeah, it can be I'm it's you know, it's so it's so interesting growing up being African This is wild I Had better relationships and friendships with white people than black Americans. You grew up in America, right? Yes Yes, because it was almost like like the black Americans didn't see me as one of them because I was African. Yeah, I'm dark-skinned You know, I eat different food than they did. I don't eat black American food. I eat African food My parent like the way that I speak I grew up in the suburbs I grew up so white kids were nicer to me and accepted me more for all of me than the black kids did. It was really like it really was a mindfuck.

Cameron:
Yeah, I think that goes into a lot of trauma just in the black community in general. Like we were born to hate ourselves.

Adoja:
We're born to hate ourselves. We're born to resent one another. We're born to, like, Black Americans and Africans still have this divide amongst us, as if, you know, and it's something that really needs to be... And no, it's getting better. Like, Black Americans are going to Ghana and other places in droves, which is amazing. It's incredible. But the conversations aren't happening at a very deep level. People are just like going to party, but we're not addressing the fact that we have been deliberately pinned against each other, because the last thing that like the powers want is for marginalized people to unite and recognize that our common oppressor is them.

Adrian:
Yeah.

Adoja:
Yeah.

Adrian:
And you and I are both African, but like Sasha, you're Caribbean, you're Haitian. So like, did you feel embraced by black America? Because you guys do have a similar history.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. Um, so I was born in Miami, but my parents are Haitian. And I remember the high school I went to in my freshman year, there was like, literally, um, during like, Haitian Flag Day, like all the black Americans were like, burning flags, like Haitian flag, like, Yeah, they were like fighting. It was like literally a brawl versus like the Haitians and the black Americans. And they would also call us things like they'll say we eat cats or they'll say we smell or like, you know, like, No, I swear.

Adrian:
Black Americans love saying that to people that are black outside of America. Like, they literally say you smell. They'll say your house smells weird. Like,

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah.

Adoja:
I mean, we do smell different. We're eating different foods. Of course.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, but like, I don't know the way I see it. I feel like I have, you have to see, see it from like the black experience sometimes you have to like look, look at it from their perspective, like these people have been through a lot they have been taught to hate themselves, and you know it is it. It's kind of like a conditioning. So I don't take it so much as, you know, like a hatred for, because I don't know, I hate the divisiveness. I hate the Africans versus African-Americans. Even like within the Caribbean, it's like Haiti versus Jamaica and this versus that. And it's kind of like, we're all, we all literally from Africa, like we all like the same people. But from the African-American experience, these people don't even know their history. Like, when they're teaching you history, Black history starts with slavery. They don't teach them that they're from, you know, West Africa. They don't teach, like, they don't, so there's, that's where that disconnect starts. Like, these people don't, they don't know, like, their history dating pre-slavery, pre the Atlantic slave trade.

Adoja:
You have to have compassion and empathy for that. Yeah.

Adrian:
It hurts when they call you African booty scratcher, I'm not gonna lie.

Cameron:
But going back to the point, how does that make, you're a black experience valid, doesn't every black person have their own experience?

Adoja:
A thousand percent. And I remember one time doing an interview, it was an interview for like CBS, and there were black Americans who didn't think that I should be an activist because I wasn't black American, as if I'm not a dark skinned woman in this world, growing up in America, in corporate America and having all these experiences. And they were trolling me on Twitter saying that I shouldn't be an activist because I'm a black American. As if I didn't have a black experience. I grew up with white people, actually closer than you did. I know them from a much more intimate experience that I can speak to them and say, I know you probably better than you know yourselves. Did they call you African booty scratcher? Because they call me that a lot.

Adrian:
Who? Like kids in high school. Never. OK. No. I guess it's just me.

Adoja:
I didn't have a terrible high school experience, to be honest.

Cameron:
Yeah, it's like, like Candace Owens, you know what I mean? Something like that. Like, no, it trips me out because I really, I really, I don't, I don't fuck with her like that. I really don't. But she still has her own black experience, right? She does. She really still has her own black experience.

SPEAKER_02:
She recognizes her blackness. Yeah, she definitely does.

Cameron:
But, but she's definitely not. Yeah, she's definitely not. But it doesn't take away from her black experience. She's still black, right?

Adrian:
She recognizes her blackness. But the thing is, like,

Cameron:
She's definitely from Get Out. She's definitely had one of those experiences. 100%. She's definitely in that space.

Adrian:
But like, there is a unique experience, especially when you're black American and or like African, straight from Africa. Like, I remember growing up, right? Our parents even kind of differentiated us and said, don't hang out with those kids. Don't hang out with that. Luckily, my Somali parents didn't like nobody. So they didn't like white people, they didn't like black people, they didn't like Asians. They just wanted Somalis. And it was just this bubble of who I could hang out with. They literally were racist to everybody except for Somalis. It was just like this weirdness because like you can, for me at least, I like, until my mom came to school, no one knew I was from Africa. Really? Only when my name is a little bit misleading. I mean, my name gives it away a little bit, but. When I say Adrian, no one will know I'm straight from Africa. But my sisters and stuff, when we were going to school, it was fine. And then our parents would come, the Somali kids' parents, they literally are dressed like the Somali Power Rangers. Like literally like garments. Yeah, their clothes are so like they're sweeping the floor. Yeah, like multicolored It's beautiful. It's stunning. But like that and then you would literally know like people immediately you're like, oh you're not from here. Mm-hmm Yeah, and then you know, they give you they call you names.

Adoja:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh I would love to ask Cameron a question. I think it's interesting that you, and I'm okay with you saying the N-word. I don't even say the N-word because that's not part of my culture. I'm African, we don't say that there. But I wanna go into our conversation that we had at, I think, The Pendry. He was complaining about Sasha. No, he wasn't talking about her. I have nothing but love for Sasha. No, he wouldn't talk about her. He made a comment about being light-skinned, so I would love to know.

Adrian:
My god. Yes.

Adoja:
Yeah, and I remember like I felt a bit triggered because I was like, ooh, is he? It felt like you were aware that being light-skinned was like a positive thing. So I'm just wondering for you where I Think I said, oh, yeah, it's light.

Cameron:
It's giving a nice energy to my skin or something.

Adoja:
Yeah Yeah, there's nothing I hate more than like the team dark skin team light skin, you know, whatever so Yeah, I'm just I'm curious as to where you think that. feeling comes from? Like, are you, like, were you even aware in that moment that society does preference lighter skinned people?

Adrian:
I think we're all aware that there is an advantage and like a social advantage to being fair skinned. We all know that.

Cameron:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think the lighter your skin, the more opportunities you have in life. And Adrian knows that as well. So you feel that? No, we don't. It's not even like something that we feel. It's just like something we know exactly. It's something we grew up with knowing and it's embedded in us.

Adoja:
So how do you, but like, but like when you made that, that statement, do you feel like, like, do you ever play on that? Do you ever, do you ever use that to your advantage?

Cameron:
Oh, definitely not to my advantage. I was with a group of friends and we were hanging out and we just talked. But as soon as I felt like it triggered you a little bit, we put all the jokes aside and we really started having a real conversation about it. And that's why I really respected you and that's why I wanted to have you on the show. Because you were more on the educational basis than just to kind of clap back at me or to just Say something like that. Sasha, you educated him.

Adrian:
I'm going to lie.

Cameron:
I mean, you should try, but I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I'm here for all of you. I'm here for it. He was taking it out of context.

Adrian:
He was saying it in the most sarcastic, joking way. And it was just funny, to be honest. I think David was saying it, too. It was just a joke.

Adoja:
Yeah, but but but yeah, if it's if it's triggering to someone yeah, like I definitely don't want to hurt anyone's feelings It's triggering to someone who mm-hmm Who is dark-skinned who yeah, you know people prefer light-skinned people over you. Yeah You know, listen, I sometimes I use my my blackness for you know to my advantage if I can tell the white people are interested in me because I'm African I play that up

SPEAKER_00:
I don't know why. Sometimes I go on castings and they're like, what are you?

Adoja:
I'm like African American. Right? You're like, oh, and they're like, oh.

SPEAKER_00:
No, they won't hook you. Yes. I don't know, like the weird ways they like to describe black, dark skinned women, like, oh, you're exotic or you're chocolate, you're this, you're that.

Adoja:
Thank me. Thank you.

Adrian:
Give me give me some freedom.

Cameron:
Give me some What do you recommend for me in the future what what should I do? What's the better way to try this not? I just not say should I just not make any light skin jokes or any any dark skin jokes or I can't say that I'm light skin or like it's giving light skin energy like like what's the proper way of going about it and

Adoja:
I think the jokes are fine as long as they are not perpetuating the idea that being light is better. That's all. Okay, okay.

Adrian:
That's all. Did you feel like he was perpetuating lightness is better at that moment? Because I mean, it was me, you.

Cameron:
Did you feel that I was trying to use my skin to be like, oh, I'm better than this because I'm light?

Adoja:
I might have, I don't remember the whole conversation.

Adrian:
There was three, it was me, you, Sabrina. So we're all decently fair and then it was you as well. And it's like, I think it just came out and there's no excuse for it. Did you feel in that moment less than or something by his comments? Is that why it triggered you?

Adoja:
I might have. I don't remember. I don't remember even what we were talking about. I don't remember what the exact context of the conversation was, but it was definitely something. We were cheersing. We were cheersing. It was something that I felt necessary in the moment to address. Yeah, for whatever reason.

Cameron:
And as soon as that happened, the whole tone shifted. Oh, I could shift the room.

Adoja:
I'm aware.

Cameron:
You definitely did. But I love that because it educates me and it teaches me more about colorism and how you feel. Because I feel like the world needs more empathy. I think we need to understand each other better.

Adoja:
Yeah, I agree.

Cameron:
And I love that you did that.

Adoja:
Have you ever dated dark-skinned women? Oh yeah, of course. Yeah.

Cameron:
I'm here for it all. I don't date for that. I date for personalities and characteristics. I don't, I don't care what you are.

Adrian:
Like very fair and complected Cameron, but we're going to get back to it.

Cameron:
No, it's a mix of everything. It's been a mix of everything.

Adrian:
We need to see a list. What were you going to say Sasha? What's your question says?

SPEAKER_00:
Um, what does colorism look like for you? Like back home from your experience? And like where I grew up in Africa.

Adoja:
Oh, well, I mean, I grew up in America in US. But in Ghana, women are now if you if you have money, they have now resorted from going from using the creams to lighten your skin to the intravenous. So they will literally go to a facility that is being promoted as a market as, oh, you're just getting, you know, vitamin C or, you know, you're getting nutrients in your body for energy. But what they're doing is they're lighting your skin. So now in Ghana, And across Africa, your skin bleaching can look flawless. But there's you can still tell there's something going on with someone because you're like something just doesn't look right about you. You don't something. Something's a little bit off. And so I mean, but I mean, Ghana is very mixed, like on the coast. It's more later skinned because that's where the Europeans were stationed. But Ghana, a lot of us have very dark skin. So there is not nearly as much colorism within Ghana, but it is definitely increasing. The skin bleaching is increasing. I have aunties that would say to me, like, why don't you relax your hair? Like they always want you to have like perfectly straight hair all the time. And so, yeah, it's like, it's too much work. So, but it's, unfortunately, it's increasing with the influence of the West. You know, the Cardi B's, like, you know, black women in Africa are getting like butt implants, like butt injections. And it's like, what do, we don't even need it.

SPEAKER_02:
We are African.

Adoja:
What do you mean? We are like, we're already we're already the blueprint. But with the influence of like black America specifically and then in Europe, it is definitely increasing. And it's it's it's sad to see us that we are not embracing us, like now there is a culture and a movement to counteract the movement to want to be lighter skinned and more Western. And now we are trying to bring it back to our original, like we need to embrace who we are as dark skinned African people.

Adrian:
I think we're embracing it, but it's like the plus size model thing. Like, it's like we want to and we need to, but people with fair complexion still do get better

Adoja:
Yeah, I mean I see it in Ghana people with people who are fair especially especially the Nigerians people who are fair are treated better I see it in Ghana. I like I see Ghanaians treat white people better than their own Literal and those are the people that colonize them. It is it is madness I've walked into a school where I see there's pictures of white Jesus all throughout Ghana Ghanaians don't even know like, you know, that's not what Jesus look like. Oh, oh You know, like, you know, I was like, he was not, yeah, he was not, he did not have blonde hair, blue eyes and light skinned. And so it is, it's, it's an undercurrent and it's there. It's not as prominent as it is in some other African countries, like I said, like Nigeria and specifically in the US, but it's, it's there.

Adrian:
Well, I mean, Sasha, I know how it is in Jamaica, but like, is it really bad in,

SPEAKER_00:
Jamaica. Is it really?

Adrian:
No, I know how it is because I saw a documentary in Jamaica. But how is it in Haiti?

SPEAKER_00:
I'm not from Jamaica.

Adrian:
I watched a documentary from Jamaica and it's really bad in Jamaica. But is it really bad the same? Because those are Caribbean. But like, is it the same sort of scale as Jamaica and Haiti?

SPEAKER_00:
And yeah, okay, so like my mom, well, my aunt, she's light-skinned and my mom is a dark-skinned woman. And she told me growing up, her sister was treated better than her because she's light-skinned. So even like within the home, light-skinned children tend to be treated more tenderly, more nurturing. And then the dark-skinned child is usually kind of, you know, you know how they say black women like they always put this like toughness on us like they just expect us to be tough all the time or strong, you know, that's kind of how the dark-skinned child is treated. And so like it's apparent in that even like a lot of our presidents marry light-skinned women. We don't really have a lot of like dark-skinned first ladies. A lot of like the celebrities, even the men are like light skin. We have a lot of famous light skin musicians. And so it's apparent in the media, it's apparent at the home. So yeah, it is a big effect. And bleaching is very popular there as well. But my mom's dark skin and she always been that girl. So I kind of grew up with that influence, even though like when I watch TV, I don't see a lot of dark skin women. being shown as like the standard of beauty. My mom has always been kind of that standard of beauty for me because she was always well kept and stuff like that, like hair done, nails done, you know. So thankfully, I always had that influence. But yeah, that's not the case for a lot of people, especially in Haiti.

Adrian:
I think we talked a lot about the skin. But like, you know, another aspect to this is the Eurocentric features, like people consider everything to be Eurocentric, like, My nose would be considered Eurocentric, and I'm just like, it's a Somali nose. It's an African nose.

Adoja:
I used to want a nose job.

Adrian:
Really?

Adoja:
Absolutely. I mean, Sasha does it.

Adrian:
Me too. You never got a nose job? No, I did not have a nose job. I have a little filler in my nose. You know those hooks that people have in their nose?

Cameron:
Yeah, but why didn't you leave it like it was? Why didn't you embrace yourself? Why didn't you just leave it like it was? Because I could fix it. Why?

Adrian:
Why do you need to fix it? I mean, it's a personal decision, obviously.

Cameron:
Yeah, but why? Why is it a personal decision?

Adrian:
I mean, I wanted to because it made me look a little bit better. You're eccentric, right? No, no, no, no, it's not. No, I just, first of all, like, all I did, all I did.

Cameron:
First of all. Whatever they say, first of all. They're under pressure.

Adrian:
They're under pressure. All I did was put a little bit of filler Just here. Yeah, but why? To give it an even proportional sort of look.

Cameron:
Yeah, but why? That's the Eurocentric look, right?

Adrian:
I didn't change the shape of my nose or anything.

Cameron:
It's the idea of perfection, right?

Adrian:
But no, I, but no, no, no. Like, I mean, first of all, Europeans have jagged ass noses too. Let's be real. But the thing is, like, all I did is just like, just to give me a better, like, profile on the nose. All I did is just add a little filler here because it had the hook and that's it. I didn't do anything else to the shape. Adrian, we love that for you. OK, but.

Cameron:
We love that for you.

Adrian:
Anywho, going into that, Sasha, you voluntarily chose to shave your hair off as a black woman.

Cameron:
So fine. I love it when women do that. I love it.

Adrian:
But as a black, dark skinned woman, like that's that's courage.

Adoja:
It is. I did it twice. And it's like, whoo, you're out there. Like you're like, this is me.

Adrian:
That's me. And especially like black women love hair. And she chose to shave it off. Sasha, why'd you shave it? And how do you deal with it? Are there ramifications to you shaving it?

SPEAKER_00:
No, I don't feel like there's any like ramifications. Honestly, I, so I went through like a long hair journey before I used to do the perm. Like I feel like most black girls, especially growing up in America, you know, your parents are, well, your mom's always perming your hair. And I used to do the wigs and the weaves and all that, but all that just takes so much time, money, because it's expensive. Now these girls doing lace fronts and all that stuff, and these hairstylists are charging like $500 plus. It was also expensive. But when I started modeling, actually, it was during the Tumblr era, I decided to go natural. And then, um, that was just too much to deal with, like having like that. Cause I have like 4C hair, which is like the tightest curl pattern.

Adrian:
Can you educate us on that? Like someone told me about this, like letter grading system for hair.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, it's just the curl, but it's just the way they kind of like separate the curl pattern. So it goes from like, I think 1A to like 4C being the coiliest.

Adrian:
What does Cameron have?

Cameron:
I don't know. I had a perm once or not a perm, but I had a Brazilian blowout once. I had straight hair.

SPEAKER_00:
Like Adrian, you're probably like a three C or three. No, you're probably like a three B or something like that.

Adoja:
What does that mean? I don't care about anyone's hair pattern.

Adrian:
My hair is like, it gets curly, but in the beginning it's just a little straight.

SPEAKER_00:
It's curly, but it's like a, like a looser curl.

Adrian:
Okay.

SPEAKER_00:
Well, anyways, not important. But anyways, it's just like a lot to deal with. It was just a lot to deal with for me. So I decided to cut it just off of for convenience. But I don't think there's, I feel like it's more accepted in the modeling industry. Like when you're a model, it's more accepted. But for like the everyday girl, like, you know,

Adrian:
Then I mean I got a lot of shit, especially for my family when I first cut it the family's the worst And then yeah in the opposite hand, I mean you fly on your hair Yeah, like I can get it real straight like straight straight. Yeah, like so like do you feel proud? to make it look more Eurocentric?

Adoja:
No, I just started doing this hairstyle recently because it's not summer anymore. So in the summertime, I don't straighten it because I can't. I have 4C hair. It's natural. So I either just do natural hairstyles or I have braids. I love braids. Because like Sasha said, natural hair is a lot of work. So if it's summertime, I typically keep it in braids or have it natural. I'll do like twist outs or band two knots and then it'll be like puffy. Yeah, it's cute. Love that. But now, they have these things called half wigs, like what I'm wearing now. So like the top of the hair is mine and I just straighten it. And my natural hair is twisted down, like flat twisted on my head. So it's like all in there. That's a wig? Yeah. Oh, so it's like extensions a little bit? No. Oh. Like if you pull this, it'll just come off.

Adrian:
What do you mean?

Adoja:
No, extensions are, that's a lot of work and it's incredibly expensive. So this is just like you, like the top of your, the top of the hair is yours and the rest of your hair is braided down and you just like put it over your hair and then you flat iron it to match. I could've gotten a wig that was a bit more my curl pattern, but I don't love those as much because they just don't make them as much as they do this type of hair. But it's all about convenience for us. But I haven't had a perm for probably a decade. decade at least because the chemicals in the Relaxers have been linked to fibroids and all other kinds of health issues in black women So it burns your scalp, right? It also burns your scalp, but people have to remember anything anything you put on your skin is going into your bloodstream Yeah, so I haven't had a relaxer and probably at least a decade. I I refuse to do it I'll straighten my hair with a flat iron, but I will never ever chemically straighten my hair ever Like I can't wait like right now like my hair is probably like here ish and I can't wait because when I go to Ghana when I'm in like warm weather my hair grows really really fast so in the like by January I have to be able to like wear it out like a big girl.

Adrian:
Yeah, that's all. I mean, let's not talk about hair.

Cameron:
What kind of hair do you have? Is it like 4C? I mean, Sasha, Sasha, you said what kind of hair I have. You should show Sasha. So she can judge you. She can see what your hair looks like. She probably knows, right? Sasha, you know hair very well. What do you think Adrian is? Show her your hair real quick.

Adrian:
We don't have to worry about it.

Cameron:
Okay, I have a question for everyone, everyone in this group. I want to know how everyone deals with colorism or racism.

Adoja:
I mean, I was an activist, so I put myself in the position to be an authoritative voice on the topic. If someone comes and took my DMs, and honestly, it hardly ever happened because I was in a place of, I'm educating you, so typically the people that came to me, more times than not, they wanted to legitimately have a conversation to learn. They were coming to me to ask me things. Every once in a while, I would get a white guy or a white girl that would say some bullshit and I would just, I either block them, if I have the time, sometimes I'll clap back. It depends. If someone is deliberately attacking me, I will either clap back or I will block them. But because I put myself in a position where I was I was there to educate you. It didn't happen as that often. It doesn't happen in person. Um It it does but it's never it's not typically outright like it's just a feeling like you can tell I can tell the difference like the way a man looks at me whether you're looking at me because you want to sleep with me or you're totally indifferent or you don't like me because I'm black so I will Sometimes I will do you ever get it from females like female energy like that for sure. Yeah, but I will I will give that energy back to let them know, like, I am a queen and whatever energy you're giving off, it cannot penetrate this. And it typically like kind of shocks them. They don't know. They don't know how to respond to that. Like if you're going to try to intimidate me, I can do it 10 times better than you. So if you're going to try something, I'm just like passive aggression or something. Yeah, like like passive aggressiveness. And sometimes I will literally directly look at someone and be like, like, is there an issue? And typically when you just ask them, like, is there a problem here? Is there an issue? They don't know what to say because sometimes they don't even realize themselves what they're doing. They don't realize that they have been conditioned to not like you because you're black. So when you ask them, is there a problem? they're just like, oh, oh, and then their demeanor will change and they'll get nicer and their tone will shift. And you're like, okay, you know, that's what I thought. But I never have to, it's not, I rarely ever have to be like, you're a racist or it never really comes to that. Also because to Adrian's point earlier, because I'm pretty, it's not usually that over racism, it's more passive aggressiveness. You know, even if they're racist, they're like, oh, well, she's pretty. So she'll get like gets a pass. Mm hmm.

Cameron:
Yeah. Still hurts, right? It still hurts. What about what about you, Sasha?

SPEAKER_00:
Um, luckily no, I've never encountered that. Sometimes I'll see like the videos on the Karen videos or whatever. And I'm just like, thank God.

Cameron:
You've never, you've never encountered it. You've never encountered a racist moment like that?

SPEAKER_00:
Like when somebody's weird, not to that extent, like overtly like outwardly racist. No, you might get like. It's funny, because the only racist experiences I've... All my racist experiences have been out... How would I say it? I guess not from white Americans. I've experienced some covert racism in Europe. I experienced it from Cubans growing up in Miami. Cubans, for sure. Oh, they think that a lot of them think they white and some of them, they'll be as dark as I am. They're like, no, I'm not black.

Cameron:
Yeah. The ones outside with Trump flags. I swear.

Adrian:
They're the biggest Trump supporters. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00:
I remember when I was in Milan, oh my God, that was the worst. Like the energy there, just you'll walk into certain places and everyone will just look at you like, what are you doing here? You know, like as a black person. And then I noticed like most of the black people there were working like low level jobs, like security or food delivery workers. Like you won't see, you won't walk into an office and even see like a black person at the reception table. So it's like, and then I remember I had a job in Venice and I had to take the train. And I was talking with my agent about it. She was teaching me how to take the train there. And she was like, be careful for the Africans because they steal. And I'm like, bitch, why the fuck would you say that to me? Like, and to them, for them, it's not, oh, it's not racism because it's not a black thing. For them, it's like, they frame it more as it's like, oh, you're African, so you're this, or, oh, you're not like the Africans, you're from America. But it's like, no, I am though. Like, you know, like, it's offensive to me as well.

Cameron:
When she said that, how'd you handle it? What'd you do?

SPEAKER_00:
It's a tricky situation because you're at work and they're your agents and they're the ones who's in communication with the clients. If they don't want you to work, they can sabotage your career. It caught me off guard. I didn't expect her to say it. At first, I got stuck for a second and then I had to just brush it off. Cause my thing is like, I don't know how to like maneuver conversations like that. Well, I'm like, if I say something, I'm going to pop off. And then now I'm going to, I'm going to have to go back to America because I can't work here anymore. So it's like, I just, I just kind of like ask the question. No, move on.

Adoja:
No, not, not, not, not, excuse me. Cause excuse me. It's still like somehow aggressive. I would literally just say, what do you mean by that? That's aggressive.

Adrian:
That's aggressive.

Cameron:
What do you mean by that? Especially the way you looked at me. You're like, what do you mean by that?

Adoja:
Because it'll force someone to examine the question and explain themselves. It's not coming at you. You're just, oh, what do you mean by that?

Adrian:
But she's at work, you guys. And this is someone who can literally sabotage her career. So therefore, I think what Sasha did is the right way to approach it. But I will say, in Sasha's point, a lot of the black people, when you go to Europe, and all these clubs and stuff, why are all the bouncers, all the securities black? They do it like this weird thing. I think it's like an intimidation thing. They have this big black guy at the door.

Cameron:
And then they only let a certain amount of black people in, right?

Adoja:
I had such a different experience in Barcelona. People were fetishizing me. Me and my siblings and I, we did a sibling trip to Barcelona and we were in a restaurant and the owner literally walked up and gave us a free bottle of wine and we looked at him and they were just like, oh, it's on us. And my siblings and I were like, what is, okay. People came up to us after we were done eating and they wanted to be our friends and talk to us. And like, who are you? We were just like, OK, it's definitely because we're black because we're the only black people here.

Adrian:
But there's a lot of privilege, too, because like you're saying, like you also have like, yes, you're black, but like you have a vernacular that's like an American accent. So therefore they hear dollar signs.

Adoja:
Like all my siblings, like we're like we're all good looking as well. And then and then another time when I was in Barcelona, we were in a I was in a grocery store and I had summertime so I'm my long braids and a woman comes up to me speaking Spanish and starts like touching like she touched my arm and Then she ran her fingers through my hair and she was speaking Spanish No braids I had braids And then she was like touching my braids and she was looking at me and she was smiling and speaking Spanish. And the cashier and her were like smiling and looking at me. And I could tell that they were saying that I was pretty, but I was just like, you're touching me and I don't know you. They look at us like we are objects.

SPEAKER_00:
And I just- Especially your hair. Yeah.

Adoja:
And I looked at her. I looked at her and I smiled and I pulled back and she kind of, she's like, oh, oh, oh. Innocent. yeah it's like oh I you know I didn't mean anything by it and of course I look out I look out the store my brother started standing there and they're looking at me and they're like doubled over in pain laughing at me and I'm like that's a big assault you know I'm not assaulted but it's yeah it was very much I know people did stare at us throughout the week but we got treated like we were like celebrities. It was a weird, weird thing. I mean, you're half white.

Adrian:
What is it like being? Do you ever feel like some of your family's a little racist?

Cameron:
Yeah. Not racist, but like underlying racism. Right. That's still racist because that's how they're. Yeah. But that's that's how they're raised back in the day. And a lot of I've noticed Europeans, they don't they don't understand. It's hard to get it. It's hard for it's hard for them to understand. Do they acknowledge that you're black? They acknowledge it and they love me for me, but at the end of the day, they're still... You're not like other black people to them.

Adrian:
You're theirs.

Cameron:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Adrian:
Yeah. Like they other you and they always say like, well, yeah, like when they told that to Sasha, it's like, they're basically saying, you're not like one of them, you're better than them. So you're other than, so because you're palatable to white people.

Adoja:
I've been called an Oreo. Oh, Michelle, you're not, like, literally that's been said to me. I'm like white on the inside. And to be honest, that's why- Me too, me too. That's why as an activist, I was able to do what I did because white people, allowed me into their spaces. They allowed me into the companies. I spoke at the United Nations and Google and like all these places. And they were like, come and talk to us about how racist we are. OK, thank you for allowing me to.

SPEAKER_00:
But even that, that Oriole idea is so racist because it's like if you speak, you know, proper or you're educated, it's almost as if they're tying that to whiteness, as in black people can't be educated or black people can't, you know, have a Um, speak eloquently, like, I don't like even that, like, Oh, you, you're Oreo or you talk white or you act white or whatever.

Adrian:
Yeah. Talk white.

Adoja:
What does that mean? Because there's a white language. It's English. It's English.

Adrian:
It's a white language. But it's like, what does that mean?

Adoja:
What does that mean? Because I could talk white, but I could be from Minnesota or I could be from Alabama or I could be from, you know, New York, like all it's all different accents. What does that like to your point? It doesn't mean anything. They just tie. They just like Sasha said, they associate education and proper English with white people because they think that white people, like that's an incredibly racist ideology that came from slavery that we weren't as smart and that's why we should be working in the fields. We weren't as smart and so that's why we couldn't be doctors and we couldn't go to college and we couldn't do these things because they had to lie to everybody to make us think that we did not deserve power or positions of power because we weren't smart enough to be in those positions.

Adrian:
But tying it all back to the topic at hand, which is, you know, I love your skin or we love your skin. Thank you. It somehow just literally is like us, like our community, just othering each other. And instead of saying, oh, you have your own black experience, even though you're very fair-skinned. I have mine. You have your unique one. Sasha has hers as a Caribbean. And it's like, when are we going to come together and just be like, OK, you know what? We need to fix this within our community.

Cameron:
Yeah, I think it's in our community. I think it's really difficult to feel comfortable in your skin. Like when do we get to a point where we feel comfortable with everyone in our skin, especially with our complexion.

Adrian:
And that's the hard part because it's usually comes from your own community. Yeah. That like says these harsh realities. And like, I mean, just in like my culture, like I just remember like the features, like I remember my grandma like pinching my sister's nose. So like when she's a baby, right? And I mean, normally Somalis do have pretty sharp noses, but it's like she was literally pinching her nose to make it grow in a specific way. And I don't think she's being racist or anything, but I think what she's trying to do, she's trying to set in her mind, she's trying to set her granddaughter up for success to be more beautiful. And it's just like, would she not be okay or beautiful if she had a flatter nose?

SPEAKER_00:
I feel like one of the biggest things is educating, because I feel like a lot of what we learn about each other, and I'm talking about across the diaspora, is from white media. Um, for example, like when the only time you'll see anything about Africa on television growing up in America is the feed the children, or, you know, so they always depicted Africa as being like a poor continent, you know, most people didn't even Most people don't even know that Africa is a continent. Like a lot of people call it like a country. And then from the other side, you know, the way they depict black Americans is that they're thugs, rappers, whores, they're this, they're that. So we're all getting like a false idea of each other. And I feel like we need to educate each other on African history. We need to, first and foremost, because that's all of our history. Like, for example, I have a friend, another model who's from Ghana. She says going to school, they don't teach you African history. They teach you British history. Like, she doesn't even know about, like, the African empires that existed pre-colonialism. So, like, things like that, like, you know, to show us that we had, you know, infrastructure, we had government, we had kings and queens and riches. Like, that's not something that's synonymous with whiteness or Europeans. So, you know, that that having that closeness with your your African culture, everyone reconnecting with their African culture, which is why like people visiting Nigeria, going to Ghana, doing the 23 and me or whatever, you know, reconnecting with their African culture. That's I feel like that's a good start.

Adoja:
African Ancestry dot com. That is it is founded by a black woman who will tie your like she'll help you find specifically even what tribe you're from. No, but this is a black woman Yeah, I wouldn't do I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't do the the ancestry calm I would specifically do African ancestry calm Yeah, created by obviously not you. But like, obviously. But I mean, like do like black people should do the African ancestry owned by a black woman. It's safe. She's not going to sell your information. The other ones are run by white people. You have no idea what they're doing with your with your DNA. So, yeah.

Adrian:
Yeah. So you guys, what is the takeaway? Like, how can we like what can we do? Like we're literally four people talking about this. It's a fact. We all know it. It exists. You made an ignorant comment, you got called out, you got educated. I've made ignorant comments and sometimes I don't get it, but what can we do? What's the takeaway?

Adoja:
I think you just do what you can in your personal life. No one has to go out and necessarily be an activist. But when you hear something, I think we have to be more courageous in addressing things when they happen. Or even if you don't have the courage to do it in the moment, have the courage to have the conversation with the person later on if you have a relationship with that person. Because there's no progress if people don't have the courage to speak up and have these conversations. So just start with your circle like when you notice it speak up encourage your people that you love to speak up when they See it as well. And I think that that's that's just where it starts.

Adrian:
It starts at home Bring back bullying just a little bit like I'm not silly.

Adoja:
Oh

Adrian:
I don't know about all that. When someone makes an ignorant comment, you really got to bully them a little bit.

Adoja:
No, I don't agree with that.

Cameron:
I think you got to educate. It depends what they say too.

Adoja:
I think it's conditional. And I say that as someone who did this work for years, nothing shuts down a conversation faster than making someone feel ashamed. Nothing shuts them down faster.

SPEAKER_00:
But they should feel ashamed.

Adoja:
No, they shouldn't. Not necessarily if, should you have felt ashamed?

Cameron:
Yeah. If they do it personally, yeah, for sure.

Adoja:
No, no, no. If they're doing it deliberate. If they're attacking you personally. If they're doing it, no, but we're not talking about deliberate. No one wants to do something deliberate.

Adrian:
Painful.

Cameron:
Yeah, but it happens. No, sometimes people do it deliberate.

Adoja:
People do it. People have done it to me. But like, I don't, I just, I don't think that, like literally, shame does not get us far at all. I think if, I think we need to approach these conversations with.

Cameron:
Yeah, if someone calls you a monkey to your face, what do you do? Pop.

Adoja:
Yeah, but that's someone that's trying to do it deliberately. If you're just having a conversation and someone makes an ignorant comment, like, I'm not going to come at you and make you feel ashamed. I'm going to come at you with compassion and empathy because I understand that you were not taught this, just like what Sasha said. We are deliberately fed information about one another that is incorrect on purpose to divide us. And if we know that, then trying to shame you, that literally doesn't make any sense. If you know that, approach them with compassion, empathy, understanding. Maybe you don't know this, maybe you weren't taught this, but I'm going to take the time right now to educate you because you're my brother, you're my sister, we're in the same kin, I want us to all do better. And I'm not just talking out of my ass. I've done the work. And I know what works. And when you can approach someone and just swallow your pride a bit and be like, I'm going to take the time to educate you, that opens up the door for more conversation. That person may come to you in the future and be like, hey, can I talk to you about this thing? Otherwise, I'm gonna be like, you know what? That person last time, they attacked me, they made me feel ashamed. I'm not gonna go to that person to have the conversation. Why would I when they made me feel like shit? I wanna talk to someone that allows me the space to make mistakes and they're gonna hold space for me and help me along the way as opposed to talking to me like I'm an idiot. So I know that works, it's just, you know?

Cameron:
Yeah, but we're that's why she's that's why she's an activist. And that's why she's doing it.

Adoja:
That's why she's doing that's why I get paid for it.

Cameron:
That's why she's doing all the groundwork. And she knows how to come at it correctly.

Adrian:
Sasha, what's your takeaway? Are you popping? Are you talking?

SPEAKER_00:
Am I popping? Um, I ain't popping nobody. But then also, I don't know, sometimes I guess it depends on the situation.

Adrian:
You did pop off on camera and FYI. Just for the record.

Adoja:
She said she said y'all were drinking though.

Adrian:
You did pop off on cab.

Cameron:
Yeah, 100%. I ain't pop off. I mean, I mean, everybody, everybody felt, I think everybody, I think I can speak for everybody. They felt that way.

SPEAKER_00:
So, you know, I get a little aggressive when I'm drunk.

Cameron:
Yeah, it's all good. But, but I was here for it. I'm gonna come back. So it is what it is, right?

Adrian:
I was like, Sasha, like, you're right. I was, I think you're right.

Cameron:
Yeah. You're just an instigator. That's why he was just there for the drama. Adrian is there for the drama. He didn't care about the cause. He was there for the drama. It depends how they come at me if they come at me if they come at me on some monkey Some nigger shit, whatever what they want to say. Oh, yeah hands are getting thrown for sure, right? I've done it. I've done it a couple times Yeah, but if they just come at me with like an ignorant comment, then yeah, that's something we can talk about I don't condone violence ever but like blatant racism like that, when someone comes at me and says words like that straight to my face to try to put me down. Yeah, I'm not gonna let you get away with it. Never, never, never in this world.

SPEAKER_00:
I got a question for Cameron.

Cameron:
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
August 6, you're at the Mississippi that you see the brawl pop off. Whose side you fighting on?

Cameron:
What do you mean? There's only one side. The Alabama? Yeah, the Alabama ball, yeah. I'm beating the hell out of those white people. I would have had my popcorn, I would have been sitting on top of the boat. I'm beating the hell, I'm running back and forth. I would have been swimming across the river with them.

Adrian:
They were dead wrong though, like the guy was doing his job.

Adoja:
Of course.

Cameron:
Yeah, you don't do that. You don't do that.

Adoja:
But that's why it all depends on the situation. It's like, who is the one talking to you? What are they saying? What do you feel the intent is? What's the context? Yeah. And then you have to, like, my whole activism started because I saw two guys in a Starbucks being arrested for not buying a coffee. Two black guys. And the barista called the cops. For what? Because she didn't want black guys in her store and they they literally were just sitting there She called the cops and when that happened and they came they actually got arrested I did pop off on her because I knew that what she was doing was deliberate. She was being racist So I got up I confronted her. I was yelling at her I confronted the police officers like that's literally how I got my start to start in activism people were like filming me I popped off because I knew she was being racist. Yeah and So in a situation like that, I'm not gonna sit here and be like, I know what you're doing, ho. Or if it's a situation where a white person says something that's truly, sincerely, completely just over her head, and she thinks she's being nice, I'd be like, okay, we're gonna have to have a conversation, Karen. So it is a completely different, the scenario is different. I've popped off before, that's how I'm here today. But there's also situations where I'm not gonna pop off when I'm sitting in front of a room full of people at Google. Like I'm going to sit there and when someone's asking me a question in a professional setting I'm going to respond to you in a professional way So it all depends on the person that's that is at the other end and what their intent is So what if in a professional setting they're still disrespecting you blatantly in front of everybody? I Don't know. It's never happened, but I would I would address it as

Cameron:
I think that still happens on a daily basis.

Adoja:
It still happens. I would just, I would, I would.

Cameron:
Where everyone looks around the room and they all look at each other like that was weird that they said that.

Adoja:
I would address it. I'd be like, like literally find out like that was racist. I've had situations in speaking engagements where they're not trying to be disrespectful, but they'll ask a question that is racist. And I will just like truly respectfully be like, I don't even understand if you realize necessarily how racist that question was. And they'll be like, oh, tell me more. And I will explain the question that you posed was racist. Because so again, it depends on the person and like the energy that they're giving sometimes people are They're asking a question and if they're just being flat-out racist like that was racist. Mm-hmm. You just call him out that was racist But you do have to be mindful your environment and your surroundings and you know, unfortunately unfortunately black people will be Could be potentially fired or reprimanded for addressing the issue it's it's it's a very it's very manipulative like you are blaming the person for their reaction to the abuse as opposed to Addressing the abuser. So you still have to be mindful if you like want your job You just have to you just have to know you're like know your audience and know your environment

Cameron:
Yeah, I like that. I'm gonna say that next time someone comes up. Sasha, that was racist.

Adoja:
Just flat out. That was racist. That was racist. Let's move on to the next topic of the meeting. That was racist though, you know?

Adrian:
What wisdom do you have for skin and the topic overall?

Adoja:
Yeah, like I said earlier, it starts with you. It starts with your environment. Bring it home. So talk to your friends. Talk to your family. Encourage people. Have the courage to bring up situations when they happen. Lead with empathy and understanding that not everybody's at the same education point as you. And when you can move from that place of love and openness, you're going to open up spaces for conversation and understanding. That's going to make people want to come to you more. We have to be, we have to leave these doors open so we can actually have progress. And I would say as best you can to leave shame at the door, not just for yourself, but for the people that you're speaking to. Just let people feel comfortable in these conversations.

Cameron:
Perfect. Boom. Thank you. Thank you both for joining us on an episode. It was really, really, I think this was a really special episode.